Glissando + Legere's New French Cut Reed

Hi,

I'm thinking of ordering Legere's new French Cut Reed when it comes out because it has a dark sound and high response. On the resistance scale, it tends to be high, especially compared to my European cuts. Would that affect glissando and note-bending in terms of embouchure? My setup is Vocalise H with a Lyrique Libertas and a Rovner Dark.

Tom
The Cosmic Pipeazoidist

And people say I monkey around...

Seeing as nobody has tried this new reed,I guess there's only one way to find out. I'm guessing that it will be a reed with a heart approaching the tip in more of a boomerang shape as opposed to a smother curve, as this is something I understand as being a characteristic associated with some " French file cut" reeds, but my sources regarding that are limited. I'm just speculating on what type of distinction Legere might be offering in this new reed. What is clear is that reeds with that heart to tip designe are more complex to cut in cane than the "American Cut", so they must have some distinctive qualities.

But I guess that like all reeds, this new Legere one will just have to speak for itself.

Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853

Can you generalize about reeds that are higher on the resistance scale in terms of bending notes with embouchure? For any given hardness (3.0, 3.75, etc), French Cut tends to be softer than Euro Cut, but the "resistance" tends to be much higher.

Tom
The Cosmic Pipeazoidist

And people say I monkey around...

I'm lost on this thread.

I say this because I'm presuming said glissando, maybe incorrectly, is being performed on a non-plateau (one with finger covered tone holes) Soprano clarinet .

https://youtu.be/45XeZOfuc9c?si=x8JtZq9ZfQtCZq3S

Are you using embouchure rather than fingers to control the gliss?

Yes. I'm interested in whether the resistance vs flexibility scale Legere uses in charts would affect the ability to bend notes with embouchure.

Tom
The Cosmic Pipeazoidist

And people say I monkey around...

If a particular reed is more resistant than the first it merely affects…..effort, not technique.





……………. Paul Aviles

I'd argue Paul that when "glissing" with the embouchure, effort and technique become one

Does that mean it's more difficult? If so, what kind of learning curve am I looking at?

Tom
The Cosmic Pipeazoidist

And people say I monkey around...

BarrelOfMonkeys wrote:

> Does that mean it's more difficult? If so, what kind of
> learning curve am I looking at?
>

Embouchure based glissando is, as I see it, about relaxing the embouchure somewhat to lower pitch and then snugging up and forming a full[er] embouchure to restore pitch to that appropriate for the end of the glissando.

I'd imagine a harder reed to play might make the end of an embouchure based gliss harder but it's not a learning curve thing---it's embouchure strength.

That said, this is not only highly academic, as Julian pointed out, until you try the actual reed, but I'd suggest that you learn how to gliss with your fingers, provided you don't (need to play) a plateau clarinet that lacks tone holes.

To draw conclusions on play based on a synthetic reed's physical attributes, when material chemistry/reciepe need not be the same as that for other Legere offerings is widely, widely speculative.

More specifically I've never had an issue with a glissando. It never depended on how well a reed responded for me. Staccato and starting notes softly are more of an issue for "harder reeds" than one would prefer. But a gliss is a gliss.




................Paul Aviles

In my experience, changing the embouchure or reed has very little effect on changing pitch. Bending comes from inside the mouth - tongue shape and position, air stream direction, mouth cavity volume and shape. Think about how a harmonica player bends. They have no embouchure at all, yet can bend a minor 3rd or more. I think this is what you're talking about for a smooth gliss.

The only time reed strength affects pitch for me is on the high end where soft reeds tend to play flat. I have yet to find a Legere that works well in the altissimo, so hopefully this new cut will be an improvement. I'd love to be able to use Legere on gigs and not have to worry about my reed drying out.

I'm confused now. It's the hardness vs resistance thing. French cut runs SOFTER, not harder, than Euro. It also has higher "resistance" vs "flexibility". I just don't know how what in Legere-speak is called "resistance" would affect things, require more embouchure strength, etc.

Tom
The Cosmic Pipeazoidist

And people say I monkey around...

I'm only interested in what players that have tried them say.


So far Corrado Giuffredi says, "Yes!!! I love the woody sound of the new French Cut!!"


And Sean Perrin of "Clarineat Podcasts" seems bullish in the other Legere French Cut post.


And of course anyone the least bit interested can't make any judgements before actually trying them. The proof will be how they play.




..............Paul Aviles

BarrelOfMonkeys wrote:

> I'm confused now.

Then let me un-confuse you, as I and others have tried.

Your only ability to determine if this reed is for you will be to try it. Full Stop.

Now--if players had said universally, this reed stinks--which clearly they have not--and I don't think Legere would put out a product that wasn't at least well liked by a fair number of players--other people's subjective opinions, including Legere's, and the reed's shape and contour are not factors on which to make a purchase or not decision.

Had this reed been made of cane, itself widely variably but at least common enough to other cane reeds as to be in the Arundo Donax family, I'd still stay it needs to be tried.

But this is a synthetic. Its chemical formula and recipe for creation might differ from other Legeres such that you can't compare it to other offerings, Legere, cane or other synthetics, based on its physical dimensions or other player's opinions. Of course this in no way speaks negatively of other players or the product. Rather, it seeks to point out that you can put "3 clarinet players in one room and get 7 opinions," 12 opinions if I'm present.

OK. I wasn't asking how "good" the reed is. I'm asking about Legere's resistance vs flexibility scale, which appears to distinct from the softness hardness scale.

Tom
The Cosmic Pipeazoidist

And people say I monkey around...

BarrelOfMonkeys wrote:

> OK. I wasn't asking how "good" the reed is. I'm asking about
> Legere's resistance vs flexibility scale, which appears to
> distinct from the softness hardness scale.
>

Resolve yourself to whoever's subjective assessment of whatever reed attribute of this new offering will never come close to expressing its characteristics for you when compare to sticking the thing on your instrument, playing it, and drawing your own conclusions.

BarrelOfMonkeys wrote:

> OK. I wasn't asking how "good" the reed is. I'm asking about
> Legere's resistance vs flexibility scale, which appears to
> distinct from the softness hardness scale.

I agree that Legere's "Reed Personality" chart is a little puzzling. You're correct that the "Flexible <-> Resistant" scale is apparently independent of reed strength. I suppose I can understand that, since the scale would simply need to be adjusted a bit (i.e., shifted to the right) as the reed strength increases. But Legere also includes a separate "Response" measure. I've always thought of responsiveness and resistance as being inversely related, so treating them as independent variables introduces a new level of complexity.

Obviously, trying the French Cut will be the only way of learning how it really plays, but companies should strive to provide clear and coherent written guidance about their products nonetheless.

Yes!..... As I recall, the cost of arriving at a playable strength Legere for my wife was 135€. I.e. she ended up having to buy three strengths descending from the reed strength that they claimed was their equivalent to cane on the chart they offer.....a chart that one presumes is aimed as saving you from buying several reeds you can't use.

In this respect they seem to be rather a disaster.

Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853

The original plan was, with Legere, that because the profile was consistent, and the stiffness of the material (being a result of a duplicatable industrial process) could be accurately controlled.... reed strengths could be accurately predicted and/or identified.
Unfortunately this has not turned out to be the case. It's a testament to how GOOD Legere reeds are, that people STILL buy them despite a "reed strength lottery"

You have to wonder whether a strength lottery is built into the business model. Or, perhaps introduced over time since initial release. I don't recall the strength lottery originally being so pronounced as just described.

JTJC wrote:

> You have to wonder whether a strength lottery is built into the
> business model. Or, perhaps introduced over time since initial
> release. I don't recall the strength lottery originally being
> so pronounced as just described.

Do they still offer to exchange reeds if the strength isn't what you wanted?

Karl

I'm not sure whether they do or not, but with any such offer there's always a proportion who don't bother and those that do. At this price point I'd guess there's a relatively high proportion that don't bother.

It occurred to me to try to do the exchange thing from here in Europe, but I figured I would probably be better off going Potholing in a Big Bird costume.

Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853

So firstly, the “donald contention” in patently UNTRUE. Once you find the right Legere strength that works FOR YOU, it is amazingly constant from one to the next. There is no lottery! I’m to understand that the Vandoren synthetics are in fact a lottery from one individual reed to another.


As for the exchange program Legere offers the exchange of up to four reeds per year. That’s not a lot, but it should get you close to your correct strength.


Lastly, for reeds that play great for at least a year (and they may play much longer than that!) the cost of each reed is a great deal lower than cane at $30 per box, with six usable reeds that last a month or so…maybe.




………….Paul Aviles

I personally have not found Legere to be cheaper or better than cane. Since I regularly play 6 distinct reed instruments, reeds costs really add up for me. On bass sax, a $40 Legere only lasts me 3 weeks. On soprano sax, it lasts 6 months. I don't use them on clarinet because the tone and response is unacceptable to me. Most cane reeds last me about 6 weeks considering I average an hour per day. So on average, one Legere lasts about the same as 4 cane reeds. On clarlinet, 4 cane reeds only cost me about $10, a third of the cost of one Legere. With just a little work, I can make most of my cane reeds play fine.

I wish Legere worked better because I do prefer the consistency and worry free performance, and would be willing to pay a premium. But they're still not up to my standards of tone quality, especially when I'm either the only clarinet or one of two in most of my bands. I can't hide subpar tone behind anybody else.

Julian ibiza wrote:

> It occurred to me to try to do the exchange thing from here in
> Europe, but I figured I would probably be better off going
> Potholing in a Big Bird costume.


Hi Julian,

Pete from Legere here.

European exchanges are handled entirely from Europe (not Canada), if that was your concern about location. We try to make the exchange program as accessible as possible. Please take advantage of it next time!

Cheers,
Pete


Pete Jones
Légère Reeds

No one said “better than cane,” however the sound and response has come quite close and there are many benefits that cannot be denied.





………….Paul Aviles

Hi Pete,

Thank you for clarifying that.

I'm both please and impressed that Legere have seen to extending the diligence of their customer services to here in Europe and I apologize for inferring otherwise based only on my own ignorance.

I would like to add that I'm very impresses with the Legere reeds and looking forwards to this new " French cut ".

Keep up the great work.

Julian Griffiths
Tel. 34 696 798 853

Disclaimer: I still play cane and like more, despite its reported lesser degree of uniformity that Legere offerings, the new Vandoren Synthetic than the Legere models and strength I've tried. And I think that I can fairly say that such conclusions are despite having found the best Legere fits for me.

But I'm with Paul here on Legere consistency. The reeds of the same strength and Legere model I've found to be extremely consistent when new. Of course they may differ from each other over time if not rotated with equal usage but that's clearly not Legere's doing.

I hope, but am not holding my breath (no pun intended), that this new offering comes close enough to good cane reeds that consistency weights greater for me than losing some of the nuanced qualities of cane, if any.

I think this breaking point of consistency differs for players may be a product of factors that include busy performance schedules not allowing time for "cane reed shopping": (defined here is the testing, finding, and adjusting of cane,) a player's tolerance to change and ability to make Legere's work for them, and overcoming their lower pitch, to name but a few factors

Julian ibiza wrote:

> Hi Pete,
>
> Thank you for clarifying that.
>

No problem, Julian.

I'm wary of hijacking this thread and turning it into a Legere ad, but I would like to say that we genuinely believe in our products. The cost of fulfilling an exchange is greater than our profit on the original sale. We lose money on every exchange. We do this because we know that once you find your right reed and strength, then you'll be a Legere fan for life


Pete Jones
Légère Reeds

hmm... I wonder if some retailer isn't waiting until, or doesn't have to wait until 12/1/23...

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/search?s=french+cut

Just a guess, but if they wish to remain in good standing they will wait.





…………Paul Aviles

Paul Aviles wrote:

> Just a guess, but if they wish to remain in good standing they
> will wait.

I ordered three French Cut reeds from Sweetwater yesterday (clarinet, alto sax, tenor sax), and according to the follow-up email, they have already been shipped.

I don't know how Legere manages its dealers, but in this case, I doubt that jumping the gun by a few days is a big deal. It's not as though Sweetwater started selling the reed before it had even been announced. I see that some British retailers (Dawkes Music, sax.co.uk) are also listing the French Cut for sale now. If there are any restrictions on selling these items before December, the retailers aren't saying that up-front.

Stand corrected; ordered 3.5, 3.25, 3.00 And I can only hope one of those is the correct strength. The process begins again.



Thanks all for the info!





...............Paul Aviles

Allowing for order processing and delivery time I expect many, perhaps most, won't receive them until release date anyway.

I got my French Cut on Saturday. Full report in a new post.

Tom
The Cosmic Pipeazoidist

And people say I monkey around...